Truth02 There’s always going to be someone offended by something @Right2B. Once you start shutting down one type of expression, soon you won’t be able to say anything. And who gets to decide the “right” things to say? Even if we don’t like what someone (or their shirt) is saying, the Charter says we have a right to say it—no matter what.

ExpressThis! No matter what? There have to be some limits to what you can say. My cousin was in high school in Sudbury in 2008 when a federal election candidate told a bunch of students that “homosexuals should be executed”. I don’t think you should be allowed to put that on a shirt and wear it to school.

Free2B Freedoms are one thing, but what about rights @CharterPro? The Charter also says you have a right to “security of the person”. Shouldn’t a school do everything it can to keep students safe? Maybe wearing this shirt had the potential to lead to fights. It makes sense to say no to the slogan if it helps keep people physically safe.

FundaMENTAL Really? You think this shirt is going to cause fights? If people have strong views on First Nations land rights, those are going to get out, shirt or no shirt. At least this gets it out in the open.

Fight4URight What about hate speech @Truth02? I’m not saying this shirt is an example of hate speech, but you said, “no matter what”. If you are saying something that is likely to make people hate a certain group—enough to actually try to hurt members of that group, I think it’s ok for authorities to stop you from saying that.

FundaMENTAL That’s tricky. It might depend on how the group already feels. How can I control how people react to what I say? The Criminal Code wording defines hate speech as something like “saying something in public that incites hatred towards a group where the incitement is likely to cause a breach of the peace”. What’s “likely”? What’s a “breach of the peace”? Is a protest a breach of the peace? Is a counter protester getting into a fight with a protester a breach of the peace?

Seems to me like the line between language that insults and language that incites hatred is blurry.

BooSect.1 OK, maybe “executed” is a bit strong @ExpressThis!, but sometimes rights collide. I heard about some kid in the States who wore a shirt on a gay rights day that said “I will not accept what God has condemned… homosexuality is shameful”. I don’t think people should be bullied if they’re gay, but if that’s what he believes his religion teaches, he should be able to say it on his shirt. How do you balance freedom of religion and freedom of expression?

RightsWchr Hate speech is the balance. I don’t care what your religion says; if you say something that convinces people to hate a certain group or try to hurt or kill them, it shouldn’t be allowed.

Fight4URight I think you’d have a pretty difficult time proving this shirt is going to lead to violence @Free2B. Shutting down someone’s right to express themselves is pretty serious, so for me they would have to be saying something that is likely to make people hate a certain group—enough to actually try to hurt members of that group.

Like that guy who said “homosexuals should be executed” when speaking at a high school. He was running to be an MP, a position of power—that kind of talk could possibly make someone snap and do something to gay people. For these types of cases, I think it’s ok for authorities to stop you from saying that. And they did—he was actually convicted for promoting hatred.

FundaMENTAL You’re talking about hate speech laws. I get the need for them, but if the laws were really strict, none of these wild views would ever come out into the open. When they are out in the open, at least you can argue against them and point out to other people why they are wrong. I don’t think hate speech laws stop people from thinking a certain way, it just pushes their views underground where they can’t be tackled head on.

I<3Sect.15 What about equality rights? Can anyone wear a shirt like that or do you have to be First Nations? I get this person is proud of their heritage (was the person First Nations?) but what if a white person had some pro-white slogan on their shirt? They’d be called a supremacist/neo-Nazi/alt-right! Where’s the equality based on race? Different rules for different races? Doesn’t sound like equality to me.

Fight4URight But this wasn’t a pro-white slogan, it was about historical treaties between First Nations and Canada (or Britain? I can’t remember history class that well). Anyways, I think the bigger question is what’s the point of saying the person can’t wear the shirt in the first place? What was the school trying to accomplish? I think they just wanted a bit of harmony so they could get on with the important business of teaching.

BooSect.1 But what about when rights collide @Fight4URight? I heard about some kid in the states who wore a shirt on a gay rights day that said “I will not accept what God has condemned…homosexuality is shameful”. Should this be labelled hate speech? I don’t think people should be bullied if they’re gay, but if that’s what he believes his religion teaches, he should be able to say it on his shirt. Hate speech laws don’t seem to be able to balance freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

FundaMENTAL I’m religious and into diversity…plenty of Christians believe that their religion teaches love and acceptance. But anyway, I think this is getting off topic…. The question is about the Got Land? shirt and if the school has a right to ban it.

I think they were just trying to maintain harmony and get on with teaching. If people have strong views on First Nations land rights, those opinions are going to get out, shirt or no shirt.

At least the shirt gets it out in the open. Maybe a quick debate in class or an assembly to explain the meaning behind the shirt could educate people beyond what they get in history class. Wearing the shirt and expressing any differences in opinion out in the open might do more good than banning the slogan.

CharterPro We’re getting way off topic @FundaMENTAL. The question is should the school be able to say no to this shirt. For me it’s simple and comes down to a few questions:

The school was trying to have everybody get along by trying to please a few people who thought the shirt was offensive and racist. Was it really so important to please those few people?

Would banning the shirt work? Would everyone suddenly get along if they didn’t have to see that shirt at school?

What are the downsides to banning the shirt? If this shirt is first, what’s next? Is it worth it?

Truth02 Maybe schools are different. Maybe since we’re talking about people who aren’t adults, they can be told what to wear. I know my mom’s workplace has a dress code—she can’t wear whatever she wants to work. Maybe if schools get you ready for work, they can tell you what not to wear. So maybe there is another question besides the three you asked—can a school dictate what clothes to wear just so they can focus on the work of learning?

I<3Sect.15 Very carefully, I guess @BooSect.1. This case doesn’t really involve religion though. It’s more like history and political views.

I think a more obvious question is “what’s the point?” What did the school think they had to gain from telling that kid not to wear that shirt? Was saving someone’s feelings worth walking all over someone else’s freedom of expression?

And then you end up with a bunch of other people angry—those who supported the slogan.

I think this sets up a dangerous precedent for not much gained. Now if I don’t like someone’s clothes (or them for that matter) I can just say I’m “offended.” Or I can ignore them completely and get on with life!

ExpressThis! I see what you’re saying, but is it really such a big deal to be told not to wear a certain piece of clothing? There’s a dress code where my mom golfs. All restaurants say, “no shoes, no shirt, no service”. Both of my parents‘ workplaces have certain items they can’t wear, including perfume/cologne. I want to feel sorry for this person, but part of me thinks – get used to it!

If people just followed the dress codes at school, then teachers would have more time to teach rather than chasing students about their clothing choices.

Fight4URight What’s all this chatter about hate speech @RightsWchr? It’s pretty clear this “got land?” shirt is pretty far from that. When you shut down someone’s fundamental freedom, you need to have a good reason.

I don’t think you should wear racist shirts to school, but it’s a stretch to call this racist. If the school’s trying to shut down arguments about land rights or something, banning the shirt won’t do it IMHO.

I think this shirt opens up a good discussion about issues that aren’t covered completely in history class. Could also talk about the term “Indian” and who gets to use that word. All in all, I think there is more benefit to letting the student wear it than to not. Maybe teachers just don’t want to be bothered or don’t feel comfortable having those types of discussions.

Free2B Ugh! Sounds like a lot of work. Why can’t this person just follow the dress code? It’s not like schools are the only places they tell you what to wear. Work, restaurants, malls—all places you can’t wear just anything.

As for “Indian” and who gets to use that term—I’d be careful there. Can someone wear a shirt with the n-word on it?

BooSect.1 I don’t know @Fight4URight, maybe. What I’m seeing here is that these things need to be dealt with one case at a time. A dress code might be too general.

You’d have to be really sure that restricting someone’s freedom of expression serves an important purpose, and that the restriction would actually achieve that purpose. Some people are just offended by everything. They claim to be all for freedom of expression, except when they don’t agree with what the person is expressing.

I think there are other ways around this. Maybe asking the kid wearing the shirt to talk to the ones offended to explain the meaning?

ExpressThis! Why are we getting so worked up about this? Nobody got hurt. Nobody got put in jail. A student was nicely asked not to wear a shirt because some other people were offended by it. You don’t care about how those other students feel?

I’m sure this kid with the shirt has other clothes to wear. I’m sure they have other outlets for getting involved in treaty and land rights issues. How is this person going to cope in the real world where adults tell other adults what not to wear all the time?

Right2B Maybe that’s the answer here @FundaMENTAL—getting it out in the open. I don’t know what’s so important about protecting a few students from being “offended” by the shirt.

And if you do say no to the shirt, now you’ve offended the person wearing the shirt and their supporters. Can’t win.

Would it be so difficult to have an open discussion about the slogan—even just a little “First Nations Minute” on the announcements to explain about land rights and treaties? Might open some minds.

RightsWchr So now we need an assembly every time someone wears a shirt someone doesn’t like? When the Catholic kid wears her “abortion stops a beating heart” shirt or when someone else wears the “keep your laws off my body” pin or that other student wears his “Palestine. We fight for our rights” shirt?

How much time does that leave for literature, science, art, math or music? You know, actual school subjects I need to get done to go to university and get a job.

CharterPro Sometimes you do need different rules for different groups of people @I<3Sect.15. You can’t tell me the historical experience of First Nations people is equal to that of white Europeans.

This slogan, no matter who’s wearing it, represents a good chance to talk about some things that the history books are a little light on. Maybe people would come to understand the whole land rights issue a little better.

Free2B Maybe, but then you have less time for the actual topics you are supposed to be learning about.

Teachers aren’t necessarily qualified to talk about this either and may have their own biases on the topic.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder what’s wrong with just following the dress code? There will be other restrictions on what to wear after high school too.

RightsWchr The “important business of teaching” @Fight4URight? What could be more important than teaching about rights and freedoms and about the realities of our history?

With a small school like this, probably everybody heard about the drama over the slogan. Maybe an assembly or something would be a good idea. Bring in some experts from the First Nations community and explain what’s behind the slogan.

Truth02 So now we need an assembly every time someone wears a shirt someone doesn’t like? When the Catholic kid wears her “abortion stops a beating heart” shirt or when someone else wears the “keep your laws off my body” pin or that other student wears his “Palestine. We fight for our rights” shirt?

How much time does that leave for literature, science, art, math or music? You know, actual school subjects I need to get done to go to university and get a job.